Curse

xBakox · Mar 28, 2006, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Btw dont go N/Mo..I hope you guys know (at least this is what every good MM has told me, and looking at the bar and comparing it seems so) that using monk spells on minions make them degen faster/more (the same as how smite skills deal double dmg to undead). Go N/E and bring Glyph of Renewal as your elites so you can spam Veratas gaze. Much easier Imo.

Francis Crawford · Mar 28, 2006, 12:36 AM // 00:36

Not the monk spell/degen myth again.

xBakox · Mar 28, 2006, 12:47 AM // 00:47

It's a myth? From what ive seen its true. Either way I rather not waste the points in healing.

Ensign · Mar 28, 2006, 01:01 AM // 01:01

I'll trust Phar's assessment about the damage that the Golem dishes out. How powerful the pet should be is something that I'm sure they'll be tweaking right up until release. My experience with the skill as a concept has been overwhelmingly positive. The golem is a huge, frontloaded boost to a death necro's momentum, which is exactly what he needed in my experience.

What do I mean by that? Once a death necro gets going he is the most powerful character in the game. He's completely momentum driven. The more minions he has, the easier each successive minion is to get - monsters die more quickly and deal less damage before dying, new minions spawn more quickly as a result, so you have more healthy ones, and so on. Where the MM falters is in the beginning when he's trying to get those initial kills to start the army. When you have an army of 20 a casualty doesn't matter at all, when you have a squad of 10 a loss doesn't really hurt, but when you only have two minions each of them is precious.

That's the value of the golem. He helps exactly when it's needed, from the beginning. You can kill that one random animal and get a durable level 26 golem out of it that *can't be killed* because it doesn't leave a corpse. That makes getting the next couple of kills a whole lot easier. He's incredibly beneficial when you have that small army as well, because he's melee you can send him in first to soak up the hits while the fiends deal a ton of damage. Who cares if the golem dies, he'll come right back. Once you get your squad of 10 fiends the golem is kinda silly, I'll admit it. But does any elite really matter at that point? I've used the Glyph of Renewal / Verata's Sacrifice guy, and you can get a really impressive number of minions, but honestly it didn't matter. Once you got to 20 it didn't matter if you could suddenly keep 30 because of your elite. If you get to 20 you win if you know what you're doing.

So maybe the golem needs some help to make it more scary than a single fiend. A faster attack rate would help, of course, or possibly some other benefits. But the huge benefit is right in the concept, a kickstart to your minion army. This is less relevant with full teams where you can slack off early on, but in a small squad the difference can be huge.

In PvP I wouldn't bother with it. He's a fun trick, but I'm not willing to spend my elite on Charm Animal in that environment.

Peace,
-CxE

Asianfunkymonkey · Mar 28, 2006, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by xBakox

Btw dont go N/Mo..I hope you guys know (at least this is what every good MM has told me, and looking at the bar and comparing it seems so) that using monk spells on minions make them degen faster/more (the same as how smite skills deal double dmg to undead). Go N/E and bring Glyph of Renewal as your elites so you can spam Veratas gaze. Much easier Imo.

Well hes right it kills ur Minions faster >.<.And its aint no myth its real...REaL i tell ya muahahha lol but yea its real...

Numa Pompilius · Mar 28, 2006, 01:40 AM // 01:40

I used the golem quite a bit, as it was the only elite my avatar had (I used my buddy key, as I didn't want to delete any of my prophecies avatars), and frankly it sucked.
It didn't do noticeable damage and was easily killed. Yeah, if you're soloing it might help with tanking until you've got the army going, but personally I'll be bringing Offering of Blood as my elite instead.

Oh, and yeah, monk spells do not cause undeads to degen faster. In fact, if ANet wants to help minionmancers in PvE, they should increase the area of effect of Heal Area.

Necromas · Mar 28, 2006, 02:41 AM // 02:41

My suggestion is give the golems +5 vampiric damage to incrase their damage output and give a little regen.

Alternatively, you could give them a single skill that they can use, like an attack skill, or some necro spell.

myword · Mar 28, 2006, 03:32 AM // 03:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by xBakox

Btw dont go N/Mo..I hope you guys know (at least this is what every good MM has told me, and looking at the bar and comparing it seems so) that using monk spells on minions make them degen faster/more (the same as how smite skills deal double dmg to undead).

you know some really good MMs!!!!!

Sorafolktale · Mar 28, 2006, 03:50 AM // 03:50

i liked the golem too, but indeed i saw its attack beeing slower.
i can manage to put it to my skill bar and still keep a goos number of minions.
if u dont use oob = more points on soul reaping, a good add.

i use a morgrifs wand [10/10] with bortaks cesta. works good.

The point of the golem is : a lasting minion on front that prevent mob to go to u so soon. keep that in mind. it'll not make the difference on damage output, or that much like energy backup. will be ur "tank". seeing for that way its a good skill. its too a good add to a "minion explosion" build. great for pvp. u use it, death nova it, taste of death, raise it again [or use bone minions], then u'll have 2 more bombs away.
i played that build and worked good in most times, and let u have more places to work on a no-pure mm build too.
Its great for a corpse use build [no-pure mm], say. u have golem, putrid explosion, well of suffering. that make the build more flexible both for pve and pvp.

ps: FINALLY THERES SOME SOUL REAPING SKILLS !!!

That collectors cesta was so annoying until now ...

concusion : it is a good skil, but not for mass damage intented pure MM build.
it was made to u can add a minion into a no-MM only build.
no degen for it would be nice too hehe

My necro is my prefered one : most played and xperienced. close to 5 mil xp now, so i known how to play with necro =) and the golem is a good add.

studentochaos · Mar 28, 2006, 04:24 AM // 04:24

So far this has been a very thoughtful discussion on the MM so hopefully this won't turn into the "minion" measuring contest that is the necromancer forums.

I agree with everything Ensign said as well as the suspicions of the OP.

There are two advantages I see to the flesh golem.
1. Mobile well. taste of death him down in a nice spot at a key time could provide a well of blood, weariness (I like it), or whatever in a key chokepoint when you really need it. However, that’s a tricky thing to pull off and a mesmer with consume corpse could ruin your day. (Probably not worth an elite and multiple slots on skill bar for this trick either.)

2. Fatty. Having lots of hp is great for a minion and the initial minion factor is great for PvE. This factor means he is more durable and allows the MM to sustain momentum easier as he can always have his level 26 buddy.

I play MM quite often. From this, I think it sucks. Don't get me wrong, the MM has great damage, certain tactical advantages (wall of bones), and a unique play style. However, anyone who does this job seriously sees its limitations. MM dominated the metagame (minor as it was) in the alliance battles over the weekend, but this won't be the overpowering mini-army it was. As a momentum position it is very hard to be consistent and that is a death knell for a pvp position. If he has to fight over corpses at all he can't get a large force going. If he dies he has to start all over again. If his babies get AOE he might have to start all over again. Starting over again means the game shifted from 12 vs 12 to 11 vs 12. Not to say that isn't a situation that can't be beaten back from, but I wouldn't want a player on my team who is only on my team when the goings are good (if your whole team is dying fast he will die fast too before his army can help). This is where the flesh golem comes in nicely. His two advantages I list are boons to the MM to reduce his temperamental nature in these situations, but not enough to make him great. People will still play this in the 12vs12 and people will bring counters to it, but once true alliance teams appear this will prove as flimsy and temperamental as it truly is.

Sub point: The only team that will ever lose to a minion factory would have A. No Aoe B. No spike threat. Only two teams come to mind with that description, IWAY and VIM trappers. MF only beats other gimmicks and does so slowly.

Sub Sub Point: Ray of Judgment. If minions ever become common in the metagame then this will too. If this shows up then minions will be gone too fast for words.

twicky_kid · Mar 28, 2006, 06:40 AM // 06:40

This skill does seem nice but it can very well back fire. In 12v12 there was always an MM there with the golem.

I took Verata's Gaze with me every game. Cast on golem he is masterless. 5 recharge cast again now I control him. The MM raises another one I'll steal it again. One game I had 4 under my control running over people.

Dragonblood · Mar 28, 2006, 07:32 AM // 07:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plague

Skillbar:
Deathly Swarm, Animate Bone Fiend, Animate Bone Horror, Offering of Blood, Vengeance, Heal Area, Blood of the Master, Verata's Sacrifice

Attributes:
Blood Magic: 7+1, Death Magic, 12+1+3, Soul Reaping 8+1, Healing Prayers: 8

Your Necro Skills & Attributes are close to the same as mine.
Attributes: Blood Magic: 7+1, Deaht Magic: 12+1+3, Soul Reaping 8+2, Illusion Magic 7

Skillbar: Vampiric gaze, Offering of Blood, Deathly Swarm, Deathly Chill, Animate bone Horror, Death Nova, Animate Bone Fiend, & Conjure Phantasm.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In FPE, I played a N/Rt & I used Animated Flesh Golem(in PvE). And it's a nice reuseable corps, plus I didn't really notice the dmg that it was doing, but I did know that it lived longer than fiends. So when I do get Factions, I'll test out the skills with my necro that I got now. But I may miss Offering of Blood.

Now for PvP,which I don't play yet. Welll...from what I seem (in Observer Mode), there where not that many MMs. Maybe 2-4 that I saw, and that was before the FPE. But after Factions comes out, we may see some more MMs in PvP...well maybe just testing the skill out. But who knows.

Vermilion Okeanos · Mar 28, 2006, 07:48 AM // 07:48

In my believe, the necro MM would soon to be obsolete in Alliance Battle 12vs12. Just like how Air Spike used to run the day, until it became obsolete. (Although I would wait for my conclusion about competitive mission 8vs8)

People learn to deal with them. All I needed was 1 ritualist slot with signet of creation, then ignore that MM and go to other area to fight. Not only that, a simple AoE Ele can be the greatest nightmare of a MM. My only greatest fear is that, everyone in a group wasted a slot for anti-MM, and there was no MM to be found.

While for the old PvP styles, we all know MM aren't that effective. Until one side had already started to win, and seal the fate of their opponents.

PvE will be where they remain.

The bright side is, Flesh Golem is quite mighty inside the 4vs4. That Flesh Golem change the whole ideal for MM inside small group.

Plague · Mar 28, 2006, 09:41 AM // 09:41

I use my "crappy weapons" mainly because I don't need to invest a tiny fortune into new ones. When I bought my 15k black tormentor's, I was also investing in 15k Druid's and also other unique items for other characters, so my minor fortune of 120k plummeted, and I lost the desire to farm since I no longer needed that much money. I also use 3 other weapons sets, some of which are unique, but that wasn't my point, so no point mentioning them.

As far as Offering of Blood and Soul Reaping goes, I purposely did that for a reason. When you have 13/14/15 Soul Reaping, your energy caps out when something dies, basically. However, when you use a 25 energy skill like Animate Bone Fiend, your energy will drop to 5 energy basic, 15 energy average. That will leave you either with not enough energy to create a Horror or barely enough to hit 0 energy again.

There is only one situation in which this is a problem: when two targets die at once. Gaining 32 energy at once is basically the same as gaining only 16 energy and not getting any bonus at all from the next death. If your energy raises and hits the ceiling, it's of no benefit to anyone. That's what Offering of Blood is for. At 9 Soul Reaping, I always have enough energy to supply my next minion spell. When two targets die at once, I get 18 energy and my energy bar will not max out entirely, or will hit my maximum exactly.

Essentially, maxing out Soul Reaping is just theatrics. It really doesn't help in a true MM build, since if you're doing a good enough job, you aren't gaining any benefit from making kills before you make a new cast. With my build, you're provided just the right amount of energy and stability to ensure you never have to stop. OoB would be useful in a 16 SR build as well, if it were worth bringing, simply because SR's benefits are situational, and can actually hurt you due to a heavy investment in it (and lack of an investment in other lines otherwise). Also, avoiding supplying a heavy amount of points in SR also allows me to put more points into Healing Magic, rather than a standard 3 points after I hit 12/12 att supply.

As far as MF goes, I've won quite a few matches with it, held the Hall several times (although admittedly I rarely have played it.) The problem with the PvP community is that people look for the "best" team build. That's why you see the IWAYs of the world ever so often: people want what works. That's also why you see so many people babbling in-game about the uselessness of W/Mos these days - they see it and assume the worst because of what they've heard from so-called experts. The problem there is that it makes more niche, less-effective builds such as MF to be more effective in the long run. If 100 guys bring a sniper rifle to a small battlefield, the guy with a shotgun will be a happy man. Who you're fighting is what's important, not what you bring.

But back to Golems... if you indeed could summon more than one, say... a maximum of 3, it may work better. However, if it's based on Death levels, that would mean you could only create 1 at lower levels, and that Golem would be incapably weak to begin with. If you kept it at 3 all the time, that too would be a bit of a problem.

The more I think about it, the more I realize that the biggest problem with the balance of this skill is its pure novelty factor of a permanent corpse. I'm not sure if this skill is intended to be a Minion Master elite or just a "carry a corpse with you" skill that happens to be associated with minions. Remove that function and you either can make a much better minion elite or you can come up with a much better "corpse mover" that has nothing to do with minions and doesn't need to be an elite.

Poison Ivy · Mar 28, 2006, 09:48 AM // 09:48

I still remember yelling : OMIGOSH, GUERILLA ON THE LOOSE in teamspeak when I saw a Bone Golem for the first time :P

Anyways, it's a destructive skill no doubt, worth considering in any MM's build.

Dragonblood · Mar 28, 2006, 09:53 AM // 09:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poison Ivy

I still remember yelling : OMIGOSH, GUERILLA ON THE LOOSE in teamspeak when I saw a Bone Golem for the first time :P

Anyways, it's a destructive skill no doubt, worth considering in any MM's build.

That get's a LOL!!! Plus a HELL YA!!!

Alcazanar · Mar 28, 2006, 11:00 AM // 11:00

this thread is just useless
flesh golems ARE the greatest

Manic Smile · Mar 30, 2006, 05:04 AM // 05:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by studentochaos

So far this has been a very thoughtful discussion on the MM so hopefully this won't turn into the "minion" measuring contest that is the necromancer forums.

warrior forums have dps calculations down to 4 skill combonations in the warrior forum but we want just a smigen of the like and half call it a waste and the other say every build is equal...

Carinae · Mar 30, 2006, 05:17 AM // 05:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by xBakox

Btw dont go N/Mo..I hope you guys know (at least this is what every good MM has told me, and looking at the bar and comparing it seems so) that using monk spells on minions make them degen faster/more (the same as how smite skills deal double dmg to undead). Go N/E and bring Glyph of Renewal as your elites so you can spam Veratas gaze. Much easier Imo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asianfunkymonkey

Well hes right it kills ur Minions faster >.<.And its aint no myth its real...REaL i tell ya muahahha lol but yea its real...

I assure you beyond the slightest possibility of doubt that this is TOTALLY UNTRUE.

Monk healing spells do not affect minions in any negative way.

SaintGreg · Mar 30, 2006, 05:43 AM // 05:43

I think it's a bit silly that in a serious discussion about animate flesh golem, the OP mentioned minion factory, but didn't mention the power of tainted flesh on a pvp MM. Minion factory never wins, but tainted is a staple death skill for a reason. Flesh Golem would at least have to live up to tainted's usefulness, especially since it does have many drawbacks.